New CoH2 Mod

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kwok
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Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 13 Jul 2016, 09:45

EDIT: Steam link posted at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1696
EDIT: Features analysis at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1505

Hello all,

Recently I've been working on creating a new CoH2 mod and am currently looking for PvP oriented testers. I'm far from releasing the mod, but I need help. Rather than trying to pull people from COH2.org, I'd rather reach out to my BK family for some testers give you guys a chance to see what I'm up to waaaay before I show anyone else.
What's up with my mod? Here's a quick statement about my mod and an abbreviated list of features.

Mod Summary
The mod is NOT A REALISM/HISTORICAL MOD nor is it BLITZKREIG COH 2. Instead, I focus on bringing a really new perspective about the game and create an atmosphere/ambience that makes a player feel more like a captain commanding a company rather than a lieutenant controlling a platoon or a sergeant controlling a squad. Something I noticed with a lot of mods out there in Coh1 and Coh2 is that they start to steer gameplay and feeling towards a platoon/squad level. Even the base games are more of a platoon level even though the game is called "company" of heroes. I achieve this goal by making the game more geared towards rewarding strategy rather than tactics with core changes in mechanics and features that are extremely unique to my mod.

Features list:
  • All aspects of the game are built from scratch, meaning every unit, ability, weapon, and literally down to the projectiles themselves are purposefully added, made, and intentional to give another level of refinement (after modding for a bit I learned so much, which really opened my eyes in why other mods in CoH2 are so unrefined. I can literally see the mistakes they made by lazily copy-pasting and blindly adjusting values, releasing to the public without testing).
  • Aesthetic adjustments to make the game look less like a cartoon (this is a lot to explain, so I'll just say it looks better and less like tanks lob large super-mario-like rockets at each other). Works great in combination with the BKII Mod win conditions camera zoom.
  • Pushing more units on the field with purpose and not just for the sake of more units, so it's not just "cheaper units to make more" but because it is critical to strategy.
  • Adjusted combat system, similar but not quite like BK to encourage more thought out play and to move away from the forgiveness of vCOH. This includes damage values and range.
  • Multi tiered "doctrine" system that lets players choose 3 of 9 "doctrine-like" upgrades to allow them to create their own personalities on the field and adapt to the changing situations of the game
  • Re-engineered infantry structure, fielding larger squads with loadouts to make them more versatile (typical squad will be 9-men with an officer, LMG, and sometimes radio), a feature that just so happens to be historical as well as game mechanics driven.
  • Customizable infantry teams (typically 4-men rather than 9) to supplement squads on a tactical level.
  • Adjusted infantry squad formations with real-life formations to accomodate the large squads and optimize infantry performance, a much needed feature when moving the game to a new scale.
  • Radio based/Off-map artillery, which essentially means no field howitzers but instead a system of radiomen to simulate a frontline force with supporting elements feel while reframing the "camping" aspects found in most CoH games.
  • Reworked armor system based on penetrations and criticals rather than HP to encourage strategic positioning and combined arms over game-carrying micro (aka, the chance of a "one shot" on a tank with full HP can theoretically be equal to if the tank had 1 HP. On the same logic, having a damaged tank only means it is less capable of fighting and not necessarily easier to kill)
  • Added level of vision complexity with situational based buffs/debuffs to take advantage not just of truesight (which has already been made near obsolete by typical vCoH2 balances) but create asymmetries of information for greater strategic challenge.
  • Removed "teching" aspect of the game by allowing all types of units (not ALL units, just a variety of infantry and vehicles) from the start to the end to make the game more focused on combat strategy than rock-paper-scissor-esque build order dependency.
  • Added more types of vehicle criticals for an added layer of complexity in armor combat.
  • Utilizes weapon based target tables to bring back the BK/CoH1 complexity and level of possible balance refinement that was lost in CoH2 and pretty much every other CoH2 mod out there currently (seriously, I don't think other mods take the time to meticulously create target tables per weapon type. So basic.)

And that's all I can think of for now.

So what's complete? What isn't complete? What do I need?

Completion progress:
USA - 40%
WM - 45%
OKW - 0%
SOVIETS - 0%
BRITS - 0%

Next on the list:
-Refining the infantry formations.
-Finishing two factions to showcase all features.
-Revamped veterancy system for infantry and vehicle crews.
-A GODDAMN NAME! I have no idea what to call this mod yet. Send me your ideas!
-Much more...

Current Needs:
My BIGGEST need right now are testers to tell me how things work in PvP. There are so many new, innovative, never done in CoH history features that I need to see how they impact in a real PvP scenario. Even though I listed a bunch of core features above, they are still really susceptible to changes. Before I push any further into the mod, I want to make sure the foundation of the mod is strong.
This means I need really adaptable players who want to play against other players. This is mod is catered for PvP, not AI though it is possible (can't say for how long because I didn't touch the AI at all. It still sort of works 70% of the time). I need players who can take this game and try to break it. Find the imbalances, find the broken features, find out what is completely overpowered, underpowered, useless, game-stealing...
But at the same time, open to completely changing they way they play because this really is like a new game. I've tried many times to "play like it's BK" and found myself utterly failing to new players.
Are you up for the challenge?

EDIT: STEAM LINK ADDED ON TOP, BOTTOM IS OBSOLETE
How to Download
Go to: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4PhY ... Xdvb0JaU3c
Follow the instructions in the download instructions.txt

To submit feedback and suggestions go to:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... A/viewform

Your ideas and thoughts are more likely to be looked into if you submit it through the form. It helps to keep the ideas coming in for you guys systematically organized rather than out of the blue messages on steam I might not even get let alone remember, or unstructured forum posts.

FAQs:

This isn't realistic or historical! Is this a realism mod?
No, the mod isn't tended to be realistic or historical. It's focused on providing a new type of strategy and feeling using the CoH2 engine.

Why are is there no sprint and grenades?
Overall, I want to make the game more strategy focused rather than tactics. I felt the grenades and sprint abilities make the game too focused on micro rather than positioning and army composition. This doesn't mean grenades and sprint disappeared, they can be found in some units that are intended to be tactics focused.

Why aren't there more tanks? Where's my precious Tiger and Panther?
They will come soon! But, I am still in extremely early stages of forming ideas and features. I don't want to move too far ahead in making all these units but then make a huge change in core concepts, then needing to go through everything I've made so far to make the change, risking sloppy work and an unrefined mod.

Speaking of unrefined, why aren't there description texts for some things?
Frankly, I just missed them and I need to do that level of editing/refinement. A lot of the times I just forget or I shrug and say "I'll probably end up changing or scrapping this later, so why waste time doing the really small details now?" But, mark those errors and I will fix them eventually!

This German is wrong.
Sorry, I used some online translation tool for the most part. Please tell me the proper name and I will fix it!

Are you going to make this historically accurate?
Maybe, maybe not. I'm focused more on gameplay than history. There are often times where history and gameplay overlap so I would make it historically accurate the best I can, but not if it sacrifices gameplay. This actually brings me to the next question.

I can't understand the units on the map. What do all the icons mean?
The icons are historical tactical symbols (with minor artistic liberties) used by the respective militaries. Frankly, I like them and maybe I'm just use to reading/seeing them that I forget that they may not be intuitive for most players. If there is enough complaint about it then I'll have no problem changing it. But so far, after I've explained what they are the response has been "oh cool! I didn't know that."

Is this a realism mod?
I said this already, it's not a realism mod.

Is this a realism mod?
My answer still hasn't changed, no it's not a realism mod.
Last edited by kwok on 21 Mar 2017, 07:02, edited 5 times in total.

JimQwilleran
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby JimQwilleran » 13 Jul 2016, 20:41

Hey, I would love to test it, as I promised you. Unfortunately it seems that you started with US and WM factions, and I have only the core game (I got it with a tremendous stroke of luck, didn't buy it). So until you get to core factions I am unable to help you, which makes me sad, especially now as you decided to do your "coming out". Damn, if all those shitty DLC weren't so overpriced...

But my spirit is with you there! I promise you will see me there asap.

kwok
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 14 Jul 2016, 04:34

Hm... that's a good point. Maybe I will prioritize getting the other factions up first before moving forward just to open up for more testers.
But you can play WM right? I'll get soviets up next.

JimQwilleran
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby JimQwilleran » 14 Jul 2016, 10:41

Oh, you are right. But only with WM modded and Soviets untouched how can I see the difference in game? I mean I haven't played CoH2 almost at all. I have no idea about it's balance. Now if I start a game with half-modded WM and vanilla soviets, I guess I will have a huge mess in my head. What things are intended changes, what are leftovers, what are bugs, balance issues?

I know I can still test details and universal matters like for example "how lack of grenades changes inf combat", but I am afraid that in current state won't be able to see the concept as a whole. I think I would need at least those two already modded armies to "feel" your work well.

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Devilfish
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby Devilfish » 29 Jul 2016, 21:13

JimQwilleran wrote:Damn, if all those shitty DLC weren't so overpriced...

https://www.g2a.com/company-of-heroes-2-the-western-front-armies-steam-cd-key-preorder-global.html 5,18e as i type this, for both US and Obercommando, compared to 19,99e from steam. But if you wait few days and check the price from time to time, you might get it for even 3-4e.

Good to see you've progressed. Kwok. Might test sometime aswell, though I don't run coh2 very well on my 4y old laptop, so I'm not usually that tempted :). Keep up the good work, it's an interesting idea.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

kwok
Posts: 1063
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 30 Jul 2016, 02:15

Thanks Devil.
I made some updates and I think I'm going to change my timeline to do the base game factions first.

Speaking of progress, I think Illa helped me identify some other needs for people who want to help. Here are some items of work that I'm open to having help in:

Unit & Faction Design
I don't mean actually creating units but rather designing them and how they fit with the entire faction. This requires a really strong understanding in the fundamental gameplay aspects I want in the game (which are always changing as well). It also requires a bit of historical knowledge to give the game a bit of thematic coherence. Do you know Soviet Army organization structure? Do you know relative weapon performances of Soviet weapons and vehicles? I need most help designing the Soviets faction from the ground up.

Descriptive Writers
Accurate and interesting descriptions and text is extremely important to make a game really polished as well as guide new players. This takes a lot of knowledge in the game fundamentals as well as some historical knowledge/research to add the extra flavor for thematic coherence. Eventually this may turn into art and graphics designing for unit portraits/game logos/etc.

Testers
Probably the hardest job is being a tester because this game is REALLY new. Ask Illa, a long time BK player, and his general opinion of the game. He would probably say it's shit. There is a huge knowledge curve to the game because it really doesn't flow or behave like vCoH or BK. But, once you learn a lot about the game I think you'll find that it can really be quite epic and rewarding. After you've learned the game, I need the tester to break the game. Break it until something can TRULY be deemed OP or a core fundamental problem. On top of this, there is the expectation that you will be testing an unfinished product, prone to change drastically and frequently. Staying flexible, adaptable, and patient with the game is immensely important in testing. But, you will be so appreciated in taking the time to play what is currently a piece of crap.

kwok
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 30 Jul 2016, 02:15

Other news:
I added the goddamn Tiger because everyone kept asking for it. SO THERE. YALL HAPPY NOW?

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Tiger1996
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby Tiger1996 » 30 Jul 2016, 06:15

kwok wrote:Other news:
I added the goddamn Tiger because everyone kept asking for it. SO THERE. YALL HAPPY NOW?

Guess now I can help with testing! :lol:

And I have all factions.. plus 4 additional commanders (Tiger Ace "of course :mrgreen:" + Kv-1 + Kv-2 + the Russian commander of the M4 C Sherman) But I don't have the Pershing though... Did they f***king add the JagdPanther to the game or not yet btw? They added the flame Hetzer but still not the normal Hetzer :? Also; they seemingly forgot the 88s somehow! :o

kwok
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 30 Jul 2016, 07:51

I can make a regular hetzer, the only thing is it find it difficult gameplay wise as anything different from a stug iii e. it serves almost the same role, so i question it's value other than it exists.

By 88's do you mean the 88 flak cannon emplacement or something? Or 88 gun in general that can sit on top of a tiger?

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Tiger1996
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby Tiger1996 » 30 Jul 2016, 18:50

Hetzer is totally different from Stug3! The Hetzer has better sloped armor and 360 degree remote top MG.. should be very cheap, fast as well as able to ambush.

I definitely meant flak 88s...

kwok
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 30 Jul 2016, 21:24

I know hetzer is a different tank from stug 3 but what I'm saying is how is its role any different from a stug 3?

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Warhawks97
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby Warhawks97 » 31 Jul 2016, 19:31

the stug was originally designed to support infantry during assaults. It just got used as TD and got first added with the longer 75 mm L/43 and 48. As inf support and assault gun it performed better than the Jagdpanzer IV/70 (guderian duck) and the Hetzer.

The Hetzer was purely used as TD and ambush weapon so far. It had another gun (pak 39) which in anti tank capabilites was about as good as the kwk/stuk 40 (stug/tank IV gun).

Idk about the offroad performence. The hetzer was less comfortable for its crew due to its size.

So its original role was a completely different one. So far hetzers carried less HE rounds (if at all). Later during the war the axis simply used all available (not used) chassis and put anti tank guns on it (t38 chassis, tank III chassis, tank IV chassis also and idk what others). And thats how and why the hetzer occured.

The stug meanwhile got more and more turned into a tank destroyer. But in order to provide assault guns afterall (with more firepower) for the infantry the stuh42 got developed (those also couldnt be abused as tank destroyer anymore as the 105 gun was simply not that good in doing so).

kwok
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 31 Jul 2016, 20:00

I have both the original and the late-war stug right now. I mean... I COULD just switch the late stug 3 for the hetzer. I was also just thinking of leaving hetzer for the other faction But in general, adding units for the sake of adding them is just adding balance problems and potential bugs.

Speaking of the other faction, I need help designing it. I had a rough concept but I realize now that it isn't that far different from WM. I need some ideas on creating a new faction that is different enough from WM so that people can feel like they are actually playing something else.

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Warhawks97
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Aug 2016, 21:22

I dont really know that much about the russians army composition of ww2 but the way i would make it:

1. Largely based on on T34/76 (85) in general.
2. Infantry that can be pushed to "forced heroic" assaults by officers. Also "fight till death".
3. maybe a doctrine that can quickly build up "death zones". Means trenches, mines of all sorts, AT guns, MG nests, wire and so on. For that having "cheap forced workers that qickly get up these defenses
4. Arty, arty, arty.... The russians had so many of them. small calibre, larger, really large. Also long ranged, short ranged etc. So there can be lots of different arty support abilties or even howitzers (idk if coh2 engine allows mobile arty and the like... 105 mm, 122 whatever). Also well known rocket arty.
5. Lots of so called "destroyer" planes. They have build thousands of the famous il-2 (that was also largely armored. Which maybe can be represented as well)
6. Land lease stuff. Halftracks, shermans etc..
7. Beast killer (SU/ISU 152, SU 100, ISU 122)


So ideas for doctrines here:

1. special tank killer doc that has the beast killers.
2. Defensive doc that has lots of cheap construction squads available but also all inf can build defenses. Those are quickly constructed. Also arty
3. Assault doc. That can be either a mix of T34, rocket arty and special shock troops.
4. Maybe a largely based tank doc.
5. Maybe an inf doc that has some abilties for heroic combat that allows inf to fight harder or to assault better.
6. Maybe a doc with powerfull air raids

Basically you can create docs that mix arround these things. Like assault doc that combines tanks and airstrikes.

kwok
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 02 Aug 2016, 07:05

Edited: I reread your suggestions and misunderstood somethings so I'm going to rewrite the response.

Basically they're good ideas. I just need names to them and unit lists. For example, the spam type inf can be prizyvnikov (conscripts), the defensive inf gvardeyskoy strelkovoy (guards rifles), the assault inf be shturmovaya (shock).

I'll probably stray away from buffs though. So instead of buffing to encourage "fight to the end", I can balance it so that the costs of retreating are more than just letting the soldiers stand and fight with the Conscript Company "doctrine" so that players are more or less faced with the situation Russian commanders faced.

Overall though, I want to start to move away from calling the "doctrines" because that implies that choosing a doctrine drives playstyle while instead I want them to be more like support upgrades to supplement a player's playstyle.

Would you be willing to put more details in your descriptions? For example, listing out actual units per support upgrade. I'll share with everyone a template I used to design factions. The one I'm showing is a bit outdated but the concept is there. If anyone wants to try to make a faction, let me know I can give some type of shared access.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Warhawks97
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 Aug 2016, 14:30

When i get time i will check it. Not quite sure how these tables are supposed to work. But will be more likely busy with other stuff till at least mid september before i can start to deeply think about it.

kwok
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Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 21 Oct 2016, 21:41

I'm trying to experiment with something new, where infantry health doesn't indicate health but morale. Death is independent of HP and based on crits (still has similar probabilities as BK, the difference is hardly noticeable). Meanwhile, shots that don't kill will affect morale. Once a unit hits a morale bracket they incur maluses up until they lose the will to fight. If you're familiar with the Total War series, it's something like that.

Looking for people to test this concept out and seeing how it impacts gameplay.

kwok
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Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: New CoH2 Mod

Postby kwok » 21 Oct 2016, 21:48

Completion progress:
USA - 45%
WM - 45%
OKW - 5% <-- not worth playing. they literally can't kill units.
SOVIETS - 5% <-- not worth playing. they literally can't kill units.
BRITS - 5% <-- not worth playing. they literally can't kill units.

FOUNDATIONAL CONCEPTS - always evolving so no way to track progress here. each time there is a new concept, it does set back the progress for the rest of the factions.

New concepts:
-Veterancy Trees: A mix of PE in vcoh1, vcoh2, and stereotype RPG games outside. Veterancy unlocks attribute/ability gains that you have to select. The veterancy upgrades are in a tree structure, so your vetted units really can have a combination of various buffs. Think PE in vcoh1 but instead of flat bonuses, they are typically unlocks depending on the unit type. For example, platoon leaders will unlock off-map authorizations for more call-ins OR they can take the leadership route to buff the surrounding soldiers. Meanwhile, regular infantry teams will unlock combat competencies as a general boost to combat stats OR they can unlock more tactical abilities like combat crawling and sprinting.
-HP Convert to Morale: See post above, similar to Total War.
-Battlegroups: Units can be called in with discounted prices as full groups to keep the game feel like a company and focused on strategic combat rather than build order.

Next on the list:
-Refining the infantry formations.
-HP conversion to morale
-Finishing veterancy trees
-A GODDAMN NAME! I have no idea what to call this mod yet. Send me your ideas!
-Much more...


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